The Reluctant Co-Sleeper

co-sleeping with baby

Having reached the absolute pinnacle of exhaustion (Peak Exhaustion? P.E.?), I find myself now sharing my bed with the baby in an attempt to get some sort of rest. Never for the whole night, but sometimes for about half of it and always for the period between around 5am and 7am, which is when I seem to be at my lowest ebb and unable to even sit upright to breastfeed.

So I’m a reluctant co-sleeper. Reluctant because I’m really just not into bed-sharing at all – I know that some people love it, especially those who are frequently breastfeeding through the night, but I can’t relax when Baby Ted is in the bed with me, even though he’s now a big chunky eight month old! I snooze in tiny fits and starts, constantly paranoid that I’ve rolled on him or that he has rolled onto his face and has his head stuck under my armpit or has managed to commando-roll himself off the edge of the mattress. Trying to get him to sleep on a clear bit of bed (ie, not stuck to my person) results in the same sort of screaming session as putting him down in his cot, and as I simply don’t have the energy to deal with that at 5.30am I end up with a clammy baby wedged into the crook of my arm.

You may note that I say “my” bed, “in bed with me”: I don’t know whether I’ve ever touched on this before, but – despite our best efforts – husband and I haven’t managed to share a room in a fair while. To be quite honest – and I know this will be perhaps controversial – I actually find it easiest having my own room with a new baby. We did the same when Angelica was born, until she went into her own room, and the same has happened with Baby Ted. I think that it would be different if they had been bottle-fed and he could have shared the night feeds, but as it was, I never saw the point of both of us having disturbed sleep. In fact, it was (is) far better for my husband to be running on full steam during the day so that he can be all energetic and enthusiastic whilst I mope about like a zombie in my dressing gown.

Anyway, back to the co-sleeping. I’m trying to nip it in the bud, because I don’t want to make a rod for my own back and have a baby who won’t sleep in a cot. I know there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a baby in your bed, I can absolutely see how lovely it is and there’s something quite magical about waking up to little snuffles and gurgles, it’s just that I need to have my own space in order to actually get some rest. I’m not even that good at sharing a bed with an adult let alone a child!

(Poor husband. This is me on a typical night: “Have you got your earphones in? I can still hear the radio. No, I can STILL hear it. I can STILL HEAR IT. What, you’ve turned it off? What’s that hissing noise then? STOP BREATHING I CAN HEAR YOUR BREATHING! Can you try turning on your side? No, that’s noisier. Try the other side… Did you hear that bang in the garden? Go and see! I’ll stay here and…guard the bed.”)

co-sleeping with baby

My task for this week is to try and get some sort of night routine for Baby Ted and then stick to it. I’ve been keeping a sleep diary for a project I’m doing with This Works, and I’ve realised that Ted has a proper feed at about 10.30pm and 3am but that the other waking times (1am, 2.30am, 11.30pm, 5am, 2.10am, 11.45pm, 4.15am, insert other random, exhausting numerals) are just for comfort and I should really just leave him to self-soothe. The problem is that Ted is a bit of a screamer and we are renting a terraced house and I can’t get over the fact that someone is the other side of the wall trying to sleep. I may try moving the cot into the little back bedroom which has no party wall, I just need to summon up enough energy to move my office out of it so that I can move the cot in!

Mind you, I’m not good at sleeping apart from Baby Ted so I’m probably my own worst enemy. I like to be close by and to hear the little snuffles and grunts, but at the same time I’m sure that I react too quickly when he wakes up – if he was in another room, maybe by the time I properly woke up enough to go and comfort him he would have gone back to sleep by himself. Although I did test that the other night and he cried for a solid ten minutes with no sign of giving in, so, who knows?! I remember with Angelica that everyone said “fill her up with formula and porridge and she’ll sleep through!” but it didn’t work. In fact, history seems to be repeating itself, really – I read her 8 month update and 9 month update post and the situation was almost identical…

So it’s a matter of ploughing on through and trying to grab as much rest as possible, I think. And nipping the co-sleeping thing in the bud so that I don’t wake up groggy, with no feeling left in my arm, milk patches on the sheets and a panicky sense that the baby has disappeared underneath the duvet. It’s just not conducive to a productive morning!

Comments and anecdotal material please: successful co-sleeping tips, tips for getting through the day on very little sleep, tips for settling a baby who screams like (no joke) someone in a horror movie, positive stories about babies suddenly sleeping through after many months of frequent night-feeds. Also, how many couples ended up sleeping in separate rooms for a while/long time/forever? Marvellous, get writing!

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  1. Julia
    October 16, 2017 / 3:07 pm

    We co-slept until my twins were about to be three. Queen mattress on the floor with a single on the side, where I tried to leave them for most of the time. If it came to that, I’d sleep w/ one on the breast (no covers or just a sheet) and switch when the other woke up, or tandem feed in all sorts of crazy positions, but you don’t need those shenanigans. Husband usually slept with us and helped when they needed more than feeding, but sometimes also ended up somewhere else. I am a good sleeper – I will fall asleep and rest well no matter where, and also be aware enough to hear or feel any movement.

    However, I have a sister who suffers from insomnia and other sleep issues and their solution was 1) husband offered bottle at night OR 2) husband brought baby to her to feed AND 3) husband slept with baby. Baby needed to co-sleep, mommy needed to sleep, daddy sleeps well and needs less time in bed, so it was a perfect arrangement.

    My kids were outlandish screamers from birth and could never soothe themselves until they were MUCH older, like 5 maybe 6. Until then, even after weaning, I or someone needed to stay with them hold hands and such or they would be rolling in bed for HOURS (literally) and could not fall asleep. Believe me, I tried and it was not worth all the sweat and tears.

  2. Caroline W
    October 16, 2017 / 3:38 pm

    Could have written this myself (except little one is 5 and a half months). She used to sleep pretty well (no sleeping through by any means but I started with low expectations so was pretty chuffed with 1 or 2 wakes a night, and easy to settle back into her cot!) Now she wakes 3 to 4 times (on a good night) and refuses to settle anywhere but next to me Sometimes I battle with her to get her back into the cot but like you, by 5am I don’t have the energy! I also wondered if I was jumping up to get her too soon but similarly she will just end up in full crying mode if I leave her to self settle and then it takes twice as long to calm her back to sleep which I also don’t have the energy for! I also don’t sleep well when she’s in the bed, even when my husband pops into the next room to give us more space. most things I’m trying to stay sane by telling myself it’s just a phase!! So no suggestions I’m afraid, but solidarity! Xx

    • Hayley
      October 17, 2017 / 11:31 am

      It really is a phase! I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old who mercifully both sleep through in their own beds and have done pretty consistently since they were about 1. I was so worried about them sharing my bed, like Ruth I couldn’t sleep properly and I heard so many stories of 5 year olds still in bed with their parents – which I just couldn’t handle. BUT, I did let them both sleep in my bed fairly often because I was just SO TIRED, and it made not a jot of difference to them both reaching the stage where they were able to sleep all night alone. Basically that will happen no matter what you do, so just do what you need to do right now to survive. Same to you Ruth! Also matcha tea! Find it, drink it! Berocca too! Good luck xxx

  3. Lorna
    October 16, 2017 / 4:05 pm

    I swear we are living the same life Angelica was born 2 wks before my first and I have a 1 yo also. Co slept with #1 for over 6 mths due to breastfeeding With Mr Hubby on a mattress on floor (yes we have 3 other bedrooms I think he had separation anxiety). She self weaned and moved into cot in own room by 9 mths. She had lots of sleep crutches and still struggles. Baby #2 is still breastfeeding through the night, Hates her cot (projectile vomits on being put in… I mean as soon as her ass makes touchdown… after 3 attempts I gave up ). I hope she will be in her own bed before college. It’s musical beds in our house all night and sleep is a fond memory. This comment is no help whatsoever, only to say I am committed to bottle feeding #3 who will obviously be an immaculate conception… I swore I wouldn’t boob feed #2 but hormones kicked in somewhere mid-push (she flew out on the first heave-ho – traumatic to day the least ) and I pulled her straight to the breast. Where she has been ever since. She now has 7 lovely big knashers and I have 7 piercings in each nipple. Thank you baby

  4. Emma
    October 16, 2017 / 4:07 pm

    Hi Ruth,

    Our seven month old went through an awful sleep regression and simply would NOT settle unless he was in our bed – so I absolutely feel your pain.

    I could never sleep properly and as we only have a two bedroom house husband and baby and me sharing a very tight space! Often I would go onto the sofa just to get an hours sleep.

    We realised that as you say, the waking and screaming is just for comfort – they’re not daft these babies! They want mummy close by and offering on demand cuddles (and a boob!).

    We started by settling in the cot, but I do understand that this is actually impossible if you haven’t slept yourself in months…. So we shared the nights. Which again will only work if Baby Ted isn’t actually hungry. We realised our little one wasn’t hungry and was protesting for comfort only, so we bit the bullet and waited it out with him until he gave up. It’s rough but they get the idea that you’re still in the room with them without you needing to constantly feed. Have you got a little blanket for him to self soothe? Our little guy chats to his when he puts himself to sleep now and I read somewhere this is really comforting for them.

    Deep breaths! Our son got better at self soothing and sleeping really suddenly so we are proof that it does happen when we were honestly on our knees.

    Keep us posted!

  5. Rachelle
    October 16, 2017 / 4:09 pm

    Our 8 month old sounds so similar to Ted! Still BFIng 1-2 times in the night and he wakes up in between only to need a quick settle. I could never just let him cry it out. I’ve often reluctantly got him into our bed in the hours between 5-7 but wake with a cricked neck and like you never properly sleep as I’m so worried I’ll roll onto him! Reassuring to know it’s not just us. Thanks for the blog!!

  6. Gabbi
    October 16, 2017 / 4:45 pm

    I laughed at your description of the typical night with your husband in bed! That’s me too!! I co-slept with my son while I was breastfeeding as he totally refused to go in his cot from day 1. I really suffered through it and became obsessed, it was the only thing I would talk about to anyone who’d listen..lack of sleep as a result of co-sleeping. I have to say I felt so very sorry for myself at times. I eventually got him sleeping through the night with dr jay gordon’s method which is gentle night weaning. I think it’s called ten nights. Once he was weaned he still fell asleep with me but it didn’t matter if I moved him to his cot afterwards, he wouldn’t usually wake until the morning, unless unwell or dreaming etc. I have a new 6 month (bottle fed) co-sleeper now and I keep telling myself to be patient, this too shall with my first one. X

  7. October 16, 2017 / 5:07 pm

    My baby has been a notoriously bad sleeper for the entirety of his life. Like, waking hourly-bad. Hourly! We co-sleep and I always breastfed him on demand throughout the whole time. Only two weeks ago I weaned him though. (Because biting) He’s 13 months old now, and last night, I couldn’t believe it, but he actually slept through the night 7:30 pm – 6 am!! Not that I believe he’ll do that consistently from now on, but at least now I know it’s possible. So there’s hope!

    • Sile
      October 17, 2017 / 11:01 am

      Omg!! How did you wean? I have a 14 month waking hourly and perma latched! She is boob obsessed . I think I might book into a hotel tonight

      • October 31, 2017 / 8:26 am

        Hey Sile,
        he sort of allowed me to, since he was always happy with the bottle, and not particularly boob-obsessed. I have a friend whose kid is, though, and for her it’s much harder. So she still hasn’t weaned him. So unfortunately no secret recipe here!

  8. marie
    October 16, 2017 / 6:27 pm

    Started co-sleeping when my baby was 6 months, only for the later part of the night. Now he is fifteen months and co-sleeps most of the night in my bed and still wakes up at 5am and wont settle back. Husband is in the spare room and has been for months. keep thinking that I should bite the bullet but I have just done whatever is needed to get maximum sleep. Did the controlled crying with my first and he was a terrible sleeper for years, cant bear the thought of doing that again. Not sure what the answer is other than to accept that some babies are good sleepers and others aren’t.

  9. Sophia
    October 16, 2017 / 6:30 pm

    ]This is always a sensitive area but sleep is so tough on mums of young ones. It was when my now 3 year old was around this age that I had a life changing chat with my lovely near-retirement doctor about sleep. She told me that from about 7-8 months babies develop the awareness to, well, manipulate you with their sleep behaviour, meaning they learn to act in ways that shape your behaviour to them, and that it was much easier to sleep train by then, rather than later. My daughter’s sleep had also gone from bad to worse at 7-8 months and I was desperate. So at 8 months I bit the bullet and did a kind of controlled crying – where I stood in the door where she couldn’t see me and spoke to her using the same words each time (“sleep now, good girl”), with breaks in between. It worked after a difficult few days and she pretty much self settled and slept through, happily , from then. For me it was the best thing. I had some rest and was a better mum. And she got more and better sleep and learnt to put herself to sleep without me. The other thing I did at the same time was to cut out any breast feeding to sleep. I’d previously had her on the breast right before bed and during the night. She didn’t really need the night feeds, but it took me a while to have that confidence. Co-sleeping has never been for me either – I just don’t sleep well. I also figure marriages with young kids are hard enough, why put the kid in the bed as well. Good luck with however you choose to manage it. x

  10. Sarah
    October 16, 2017 / 6:30 pm

    I’m going through something very similar with my 3 month old daughter! So similar that I made my husband read this too (though his comment was that you seem far more reasonable than me in terms of your sensitivity to sound at night – thank you husband.) I’m very much in the thick of it and just muddling my way through.
    Technically, co-sleeping and breastfeeding laying down is progress for me. I slept sitting upright for the first 4 weeks as baby breastfed constantly and wouldn’t be put down for any reason! I hope I never have to go through that again.
    I have just started to get baby to sleep in her cot for a couple hours a night, before she inevitably ends up in my bed by 10.30pm, and it feels like I’ve performed magic every time it happens. I just don’t know how I’m going to get her to sleep for longer, not wake up constantly myself, or break the habit of feeding her to sleep. I guess I’ll work it out later.
    I’m completely knackered this evening, but there is something so comforting about reading this blog and seeing that other mums have gone/are going through the same thing. Thank you! Xx

  11. Katherine
    October 16, 2017 / 6:59 pm

    We got a safety bed rail for our bed! It’s a contraption that goes on your bed and stops baby from falling out! It’s brilliant, saved my little one from falling off the bed a few times

  12. Scarlett
    October 16, 2017 / 7:20 pm

    My son, now 11 months, went through a phase at 7-8 months of screaming for 2hrs in the middle of the night, only thing which settled him was to wodge him into the crook of my arm in our bed. This was during the heatwave. It was sweaty, grim and I was just so so tired. Luckily he would also settle in bed with my husband so we would take it in shifts, sadly I bf so couldn’t spend a full night in the spare room!!

    Reluctantly co slept for about a month until couldn’t take it any more. Ordered the big sleepyhead after weaning off the small one at 6 months, then when it came I was determined he was going to stay in his bed all night – yes he screamed (I stayed with him/patted & shhd the whole time) and it was horrible and I cried a lot and I’m sure my neighbours hated me, but apart from for feeds he stayed in his bed all night and the following night was so much better.

    It was a hideous phase. I think for us it coincided with a wonder week leap, but my son has sleays been super clingy and during this phase it seemed he just hated to wake up in the night and be alone. I
    hope it ends soon for you!!

  13. Sarah
    October 16, 2017 / 8:21 pm

    When it seems like nothing else will buy us a bit more sleep, we put the Sleepyhead on the bed between us. Baby is soothed by our presence without us worrying about her safety. Good luck! x

  14. Katie
    October 16, 2017 / 8:41 pm

    I completely feel your pain. My first slept through at 8 weeks, loved sleeping in her Moses basket and was in her own room at 4 months. My second (a boy, now 14 months) just exhausted me. He would scream if I put him down to sleep anywhere but in my arms and he woke for night feeds until 9 and a half months, He kicked the night feeds after I was just too tired to get up and get him a bottle. I got him out of my bed by putting a t shirt I had worn for a couple of nights on a big teddy bear in his cot (so he cuddled up to it when I put him in and it smelt like me). I also put a hot water bottle in his bed so it was lovely and warm when I put him in (and removed the hot water bottle when he went in). Did it for a couple of weeks then he went in without it, although he still cuddles up to his big teddy. Now I just need to teach him to fall asleep by himself instead of falling alseep on his bottle!

  15. Pen
    October 16, 2017 / 9:59 pm

    Ruth listen to Rachel ‘s (Yoga Girl) podcast on how she’s solved her sleepless baby problem. She was also exhausted and at the end of her tether with her baby (similar age to Ted) and has cracked it painlessly! Good luck!

    • Jen
      October 17, 2017 / 4:39 pm

      OMG have just listened to the podcast you recommended. Easy to listen to & great tips! She ( yoga girl ) did lots of research Ruth ! So you maybe don’t have to . Thank you pen x

  16. Pen
    October 16, 2017 / 10:01 pm

    Ps that was meant to say Rachel Brathen (yoga Girl)!

  17. Jaci
    October 16, 2017 / 10:21 pm

    Ferber method, there’s a book explaining it, worked wonders for my best friend’s two boys. Not sure so much for my son, but I seriously couldn’t take listen to him crying and by the time I finally was exhausted enough to try it with real commitment, he was too big and I walked in the room to check on him and found him straddling his crib in an escape attempt! Ack. Gave up then and there on that one.
    My younger sisters baby self soothed from the get go, wrapped up in his receiving blanket like a straight jacket and I never will forgive her for having a baby sleeping through the night from birth. Who gets that level of luck??? He took two hour naps like clockwork too.
    No definite answer unfortunately, u have to see what works for you. Good luck!

  18. Caroline
    October 17, 2017 / 12:59 am

    My husband n I slept separately for almost 2 years (2 babies under 2 as well) even then he had little sleep as my first baby (girl) was a cryer/screamer she cries at every little thing, even when he gets a haircut
    Whereas my boy most nights slept thru so I was pretty lucky (Sorrry Ruth to rub it in)
    Now at 16 & 15 years I look back n miss those early years terribly (lie )

  19. Hannah
    October 17, 2017 / 3:41 am


    Goodness this does not seem like an easy situation but definitely think you are right to put a stop to the bed sharing. Each to their own, but I have friends who still find that their six year old gets into bed with them and it is a real issue for their marriage and actually just getting some time to themselves. You are Ted’s mum and only you can decide the best course of action but you need to get sleep for your own mental well being and for your daughters sake too. Could the Toddler go to stay with her Granny for a couple of nights whilst you begin a night time routine? This will ease the worry of him waking her. Also do not be afraid to get professional help…Doulas and nightnurses will still come to baby’s or this age and will help and advise you when you are feeling at your most tired (and let’s face it, weakened!) As long as a baby of Teds age is fed fully, he should be capable of sleeping a full night. Also look to the Book The Baby Whisperer for guidance. It’s a brilliant book, no need for controlled crying but all about good sleep habits. We used it with my daughter at 3 months and she is a good sleeper. The longer the problem is left, the bigger it will become to deal with. Wishing you lots of luck.

  20. Lorraine
    October 17, 2017 / 5:33 am

    I’m not feeding but my 6 month old was in the bed most nights from 3ish. Bought a luella doll and it improved and sometimes I give her water not bottle when she wakes. Might not help as I know nothing about breastfeeding. Did 4 days on baby 1 and it was an epic failure. Google Luella doll

  21. October 17, 2017 / 6:00 am

    We had prolonged periods of separate bedrooms after both kids were born, I think it is perfectly normal and very healthy for the relationship. Imagine both of you going through the day in Zombie mode and snapping at each other?
    With mine I did periods of co-sleeping, especially when they had such weeks like you describe them now, or even now when they are sick, but I tried to get them back to their own crib as soon as possible again. I don´t mind sharing a bed with an adult, but babies just take up so much space!
    Sadly, no great tips here. I just went through it and both started sleeping through at 1 and a half years. Like really sleeping through, no waking from 8 pm to 6 am.

  22. Sharon H
    October 17, 2017 / 6:10 am

    Well what’s been working for me is having a twin bed in my sons room (he’s almost 6 Months) in addition to his crib. Since he was almost 2 Months, I started sticking him in his crib once he’d fallen asleep on me. I turn on his heartbeat sound machine that puts starlight on the ceiling and is on a timer. Then I turn on my baby monitor and head to my own bed with my husband. If he cries long enough to wake me (I’m a heavy sleeper) I’ll turn off the monitor and go sleep in the twin bed letting him know I’m there in the room but leaving him in his crib and tucking his pacifier back in his mouth. If being in the same room helps him go back to sleep great, if he’s still crying after a few minutes knowing I’m there, then I’ll take him out to cuddle back to sleep in the twin bed. He’s between me and the wall because I’m paranoid of him rolling off too. Once he’s asleep, if I haven’t passed out too, I’ll put him back in his crib and go back to my own bed with the monitor. All the while husband stays in bed and gets his precious 8 hours. 😉

  23. Liz J
    October 17, 2017 / 7:13 am

    Oh Ruth I have very little advise to offer but masses of sympathy and a very knowing exhausted nod of agreement. My little one is 10 months. Last night we reluctantly co slept (well she fed and I pretended I could be asleep through the jabbing, shoving, punching) from 12-1:30 and then 3-5:10am. I am exhausted. I have to go to work now. I also feel much much better having read your post knowing that I’m not alone. Maybe they grow out of it??!!!? The only thing that seems to work for me is once she does eventually pass out I gently lift and carry her into her cot in her own room and then I do manage some sleep.

    Hope you manage to find a solution that works to get you all through this stage

    Liz xxxx

  24. Sarah
    October 17, 2017 / 8:02 am

    Exactly what our situation was like with little one. Dad in the other room on a single mattress and baby in a sleepy head next to me – I don’t/didn’t like sleeping with baby as I could never relax but the sleepyhead was fantastic at keeping him on his side of the bed – till at the age of 13 months I stopped breastfeeding him – but we continued to co sleep till we got the cot up and working but still in the same room with us – not attempted how to get him to sleep in his own room and go to sleep alone yet!!!

  25. Rachael
    October 17, 2017 / 8:14 am

    Hi Ruth all sounds very much like my situation and I feel for you the lack of sleep is tough. I co-slept with my daughter (now 4) till she turned 4 and had my second (4 months old) whom I’m currently co-sleeping with. I did try not going down that route again but like you I found it the only way to get any rest and feeding every 30mins I just makes more sense. My husband and I only went back to bed sharing for a few months between my eldest being ok sleeping alone and arrival of second baby and probably will be a few years till we do again but I find it easier too for me and him. Only a short time though eh and I really couldn’t do it any other way because I hate hearing her cry and I just find cosleeping the best thing for us all 🙂 love your blogs and videos. Hope you find some sleep xxx

  26. Joelle
    October 17, 2017 / 9:17 am

    Yep, husband has been in the spare room for 9 months! I go through waves of utterly resenting him for it and then preferring my own space when I bring baby in with me at 5-7am anyway.

    Also recommend yoga girl’s podcast in sleep. I think babies just go through phases? Last week was great and only 1 wake up per night, this week it’s back to 2-3. Zzzzzz.

    Lots of love Ruth, it’s really hard! You are doing a fab job xxx

  27. Kat Mac
    October 17, 2017 / 9:33 am

    The only baby book I’ve ever read has been The Gift of Sleep by Elizabeth Sloane and it saved me. Each to their own, but her sleep program worked for my frequent waker. The book itself is very simple, straight forward, and compassionate to the special brand of helplessness us mums feel when our bubs won’t sleep. Sending lots of good thoughts your way, exhaustion sucks xx

  28. Elise
    October 17, 2017 / 9:44 am

    Hi Ruth,
    Long-time reader, first-time commenter here. What you describe is essentially us six months ago. It will get better, I promise.
    By the time my younger son (15 months today) was 10 months old, I was crying tears of exhaustion every morning. Like Lorna above, we played musical chairs (beds?) at home — toddler falling asleep in our bed after 90 minutes of bedtime negotiations, then moved by husband, who would then set camp on the couch because if baby had miraculously been moved to his cot after falling asleep on the boob, then he would accept nothing but the big bed with me and my boobs after the first wake-up .
    Enter muscle cramps in the neck and shoulders, guilt, dread and more guilt (“He’ll die of SIDS and it’ll be my fault”), ugly resentment towards husband (“So you think the couch is uncomfortable, huh? Try not sleeping for more than 2 hours for 10 months straight, mofo”), random anxiety (about taxes, my older son no longer loving me, pesticides, North Korea, you name it). Not good.
    And, like you, isolation: my husband’s American, I’m French, we live in Sweden (of all places) after having moved four times through three countries in the previous two years, so very little support system. And I’ve had to work the whole time (I’m a translator and as you know, working from home with a baby and a toddler is, well, a bitch). And travel on my own with both boys quite a lot to France and even to the US (do.not.attempt).
    So one day I begged my husband to take the baby at night. I’d had a few anxiety attacks and fainting spells, and my body was telling me it was just too much. I had been ambivalent about stopping breastfeeding but I couldn’t do the nights anymore. So my husband, bless him, stepped up, endured a few nights with a very unhappy baby and a bottle, until he woke up only once at night. But it was less hard than we’d thought. I kept breastfeeding him morning and evening and once in the afternoon for a few months until he weaned himself after his first birthday.
    What helped immensely was actually talking to the baby. Sounds silly, and it probably helped me more than anybody else, but I just told him that I loved him with all my heart but that I was too tired and that Daddy would love to spend more time with him at night (which is true, they actually bonded).
    And I also realised that maybe he had been suffering from some sort of benign neglect during the day: it is much harder to not give attention to a toddler than to a baby, so looking back I think we were more attentive to the emotional needs of his brother (and honestly, more afraid of him acting out, you know what havoc toddlers can wreak) than to his. And it didn’t help that I was essentially trying to get some work done every free minute I could grab.
    I think feeding like a maniac at night and essentially needing full-body contact with me was the baby’s way to get my attention, because if I’m being honest, he probably legitimately needed it. So I also tried to play with him more during the day instead of trying to write emails with him on the floor and it helped a bit (or maybe it just made me feel better).
    Six months down the line, things are much better. Baby’s sleeping almost through the night and I’m slowly recuperating. Both boys are in nursery full-time now, it helps immensely to be able to work like a normal person and genuinely enjoy mornings, evenings and week-ends with them. I look like a million dollars-ish: I wear my Equipment shirts again during the day (the only real incentive to stop breastfeeding imo) and I can look in the mirror first thing in the morning without wondering why Benicio del Toro is looking back and where his sex appeal has gone.
    It’s still hard to share a bed though. We are slowly turning into an old Victorian couple. But that too will sort itself out…
    Hang in there Ruth, and all the other ladies going through the same thing. And to quote the immortal prophet: ” WHATEVER WORKS!”.

  29. Ange
    October 17, 2017 / 10:55 am

    Have you tried a different brand of nappies? My baby cried the minute her nappy was wet when she was really little. We then got into a pretty good routine of sleeping a big chunk in the night. Then after a few weeks of good sleeping she suddenly started waking up frequently again. We were at our wits end and then my husband pointed out that we had started using a different type of nappy as we had been given some by a friend who’s baby had grown out of them. We switched back to our usual brand which must make her feel drier and she went back to sleeping pretty well. It even affected her day naps so she would end up getting over tired and really hard to settle. My baby is younger than Ted but anything is worth a go when it comes to sleep!

  30. Hayley
    October 17, 2017 / 10:58 am

    I don’t know if it will help Ruth, but when I was a baby I was a terrible sleeper. Then my dad put me in a room of my own for the first time while my mum was staying overnight at work and when he woke up in the morning he rushed in thinking something had happened because I hadn’t woken him up all night – and there I was, sleeping peacefully. The exact same thing happened with my daughter when we put her in her own room at 3 months.

  31. Lucy
    October 17, 2017 / 11:01 am

    Totally feel your pain – the multiple night wakings are SO exhausting. And I could never quite shake the feeling that it was because I was doing something wrong (which I now know is complete rubbish – we are all just trying to do our best for our baby).

    My little girl was never consistently a terrible sleeper but she was so inconsistent. From about 3 months she alternated brief periods of sleeping through (8/9 hours) with waking up between 1 and 4 times a night, so I was constantly trying to work out what the secret was! And I often ended up bringing her into our bed just to try to get a bit more rest.

    In the end, at around 6 months, I got a sleep consultant to help us. It wasn’t any one thing that made the difference, rather lots of smaller things which added up to make a big difference. The biggest change was implementing a very consistent routine during the day, and making sure she was tired enough when putting down for naps or to bed at night (so keeping awake longer between sleeps). We did also have to go through a few difficult nights of letting her cry more than I’d like, but I wasn’t actually as bad as I had feared. It’s hard at the time but it is such a relief now to be able to leave her to go to sleep in her bed on her own – sometimes she actually lurches for her cot at bedtime!

    Keep going – you’re doing a brilliant job! xx

  32. Georgie
    October 17, 2017 / 11:14 am

    There’s nothing quite like the baby days is there? They are short though (luckily)
    When my youngest was 3 months old my eldest started school. Almost 3 mile round walk. Everyday, twice a day (no car) it was hell for a long time and baby was a good(ish) sleeper I dread to think how I would have been if she was keeping me awake all night. We drag ourselves through unscathed eventually! X

  33. Lou
    October 17, 2017 / 11:19 am

    Hi Ruth, have you had your vitamin d levels checked? I thought I was just a tired mum too as I felt groggy and tired all the time but it turned out my vit d levels were extremely low. It’s very common with nursing mums apparently. Anyway, I was put on a weekly booster and I feel like a new person. I’m still tired from lack of sleep but I’m less zombie like now and find myself less frustrated by the kids than I used to be. Just a thought. Good luck with Baby Ted, he’s adorable.

  34. Susanamantha
    October 17, 2017 / 11:25 am

    For us, we chose to let our first cry herself to sleep after 4-5 months of what you’re going through. Mini-breastfeeds every hour or two were making me crazy! So, one night, we decided to bite the bullet. When she woke up an hour or so after a good long feed, we checked to make sure she was dry and all that, then put her back in bed, said “Nighty-night” and left her to herself. She cried for an hour, I cried for nearly an hour, my poor husband trying to comfort me, saying “We did the right thing. She’ll be fine.” She was. The next night, she cried less, a lot less, then slept the rest of the night. Problem solved. Oh, there would be occasions when she would cry in the night, one of us would get up and check on her, pick her up, soothe her for a minute, then put her back down. OUr second little one didn’t have that problem. She was a good sleeper from the beginning.

  35. Shannon
    October 17, 2017 / 1:52 pm

    Oh, how I can relate. There is a Facebook group called ‘Respectful Sleep Training/Learning’ that was my saving grace when I was in the same exact situation. It has 80k members, so lots and lots of crowd sourced info, advice and stories. The group also has files that describe different sleep training methods and tips in a very concise format. I appreciated that since there was no way I was reading a book in my mombie state, and even long sleep articles on the internet were too much for me to comprehend. Consider giving it a look. I think it’s a closed group, but everyone who joins is accepted. I’m currently pregnant with #2 and, while my excitement outweighs my anxiety, I am dreading the sleep deprivation already! Thinking about you. <3

  36. Ania
    October 17, 2017 / 2:00 pm

    I had a similar problem and solved it by stopping breast- feading after 9 months.
    We had co-slept so that I could feed my son every 15 minutes over night: he sought comfort, not food.
    It took 3 nights for him to accept mew arrangements: sleeping in his cod without waking up more than once over night. I used a soother in case he cried, but after all the soother was necessary only when falling asleep untill he was 15 months.
    To me it was live-saving, after 9 months of severe sleep deprivation I had a proper 8 hours night sleep which saved my sanity. I think it was good for each family member.

  37. Katie
    October 17, 2017 / 2:23 pm

    My daughter was born a few days after Ted and she is the same way! Though lately she doesn’t like co-sleeping unless I’m sitting nearly upright in bed with my arm at an impossible angle to keep the boob in her mouth with nothing to support my head at all. So I had to start letting her cry it out (though not as strictly as some do it. I just can’t listen to her screaming!) last Wednesday. She cried a full 25 mins the first time and now goes to sleep with very little fuss most of the time. If she’s screaming, I go get her, but most of the time she goes back and forth between standing at the crib railing complaining loudly to lying down (usually in a way that looks very uncomfortable) and drifting off. Sometimes she does this only once or twice, but she’s still fighting daytime naps in her crib and just now spent about 30-45 minutes going back and forth and even playing in between. The third night after letting her sort it out she slept from 9 pm – 6 am without waking once! I hope you can manage to get things worked out for your sanity and to get some rest. It may work best if baby Ted is in another room. Sylvie would never just go to sleep if she could see me! EVER. Best of luck!

  38. Jess
    October 17, 2017 / 2:44 pm

    I fell you mama, and know how hard it is. My baby was same way, and we ended up co-sleeping from 6-10 months, which meant lots broken sleep for me. The baby would wake if I moved around too much, or coughed and then I would have to nurse her back to sleep. We did sleep training at 10 months (modified ferber method) and it worked wonders. It took about 4-5 days for it to click and then she could go to sleep in her own bed! She did wake up every night around 3-4am for a quick 10 minute nurse and she dropped that on her own at 14 months. So for past 6-7 months she sleeps through the night every night. In my own personal experience, I found that around 8-10 months of age, nursing to sleep stopped working, it took longer and longer, and caused her to wake up more often. I can’t tell you how man times I would try and unlatch, stealth ninja put her in crib or even just roll over and she would wake up. so frustrating. Once she learned how to sleep on her own, it solved all the problems. She needs 20 minutes or so to wind down each night in her crib, babbling to herself, throwing toys around, etc, and has done that since 10 months. I hope you find something that works and you get some sleep. To be that sleep deprived is miserable for you and for everyone else. xoxoxo

  39. Alice
    October 17, 2017 / 3:11 pm

    I think our sleep expectations are way off in terms of babies. You can see why animals just sleep in one big bundle of family. Baby wants to be as close to being back in that womb which was warm and where they were fed constantly and sleeping next to you with boob access is a good second best! So in terms of what actually helped us? The Gentle Sleep book to help re-adjust my expectations and just know what you are doing is the best you can do right now. Xx

    • October 19, 2017 / 10:51 am

      This book saved my shit!

  40. Laura
    October 17, 2017 / 3:28 pm

    Hi Ruth! I was in the exact same position a month ago. Even though I sort of liked co-sleeping at the start, once Baby copped on that if he kicked up enough of a fuss he could sleep in his preferred position (i.e. mouth one inch away from The Source of all Food and Comfort) he ended up in the bed most of the night. And it got really hard for me to get any sleep with him so close and sort of doing ten half feeds and lots of grunting and kicking throughout the night. So, I started by getting him to nap in his own room in a cot, and followed up a few days later by moving him in there at night. He was entirely dependent on nursing to get to sleep, so we sleep trained him….going in every ten mins or so to shush and pat him. It was tough going for about a week of ‘Babies Gone Wild’ in our house, but it got SO much better very quickly. I was freaking out about the neighbours as we’re also in a terraced house! My husband was much better at being relaxed about it…I decided to just say nothing and if they knocked on the door or something to just apologise and say it was teething or something. No one said anything as it happened and it didn’t last long so you just have to grit your teeth and do it I think! Within a week he was happily going down awake in his own cot in his own room at 7pm and is in bed til 7am with two feeds (he’s 4.5 months). I do the feeds quickly and quietly in a nursing chair in his room and pop him straight back down. Result = much better rested baby and mum, and actual space for me and the husband. Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

  41. October 17, 2017 / 3:45 pm

    We have the same issue… things started off ok with my breastfeeding George and then settling him into his crib/Moses basket. Then he got too big for those and before we managed to get a cot bed, he got used to sleeping in our king size with us and now he settles in it for the first part of the night and then got into bed with us in the small hours as I am too tired by then to persevere with putting him in his own bed! Plus if he screams I worry he will wake Teddy, our toddler. So, he gets his own way. I don’t mind sleeping in one position like Dracula all night but my OH worries we will roll onto George a lot. We have a sofa bed that I might move myself and George onto if it carries on longer. I’ve grown quite attached to sleeping next to him as well…. instincts are strong! There are so many cultures who have their children sleep in with them and they do fine. I’m not worrying about it. As long as we all sleep then that’s the main thing 😉 xxx

  42. Leyla
    October 17, 2017 / 6:34 pm

    My son is 9 1/2 months and I could have written your post! It makes me feel better knowing other breastfeeding mums go threw this. Louis slept next to me in a snuz then cot up until recently and woke up countless times to breastfeed him threw the night
    At about 5am he used to come in the bed with me because I couldn’t face waking up for the day having been up all night and it was the only way to get him to sleep later. I didn’t like co sleeping though my back and arm hurt I felt sooo paranoid doing it like you, ridiculous situation. I then moved from London to Bristol carried on like this for a month in the new house then decided enough. I got a muslin square (adenanais) cut it into 4 pieces and covered it in breast milk and slept with it….I then put this rag with him everywhere! In his pram/cot/floor/car seat with him, I waited a few days until he was clearly getting attached to this stinky dirty breastmilky filth thing. Then a morning I felt goodish and I did my normal morning routine with him, so fed him in his sleep bag in my bed, the when he was falling asleep I moved him to his baby room, put him down in his cot with his rag while he was sleepy but not asleep (he was previously napping in my bed). He did cry, I had decided at this point I was so tired I would do some controlled crying, I went in after 2mins 4mins 8mins got to 20 then he fell asleep. He cried a little the next nap and since then he’s been fine, he sucks and chews on his rag and now sleeps threw the night some nights 7-6.30/7.15ish or wakes up once for a feed (which I do on the sofa in the living room).

    I feel human again! I know muslins etc are controversial I have a motion sensor so I feel it’s ok but it’s everyone’s choice. I used one because I’ve done an art therapy training and during my training I learnt about using ‘transitional objects’ for clients, so I tried to create this for my son with the muslin. I also know CC is controversial but you only go there if your desperate and it was heartbreaking but we both got threw it and it lasted for a very brief time and it worked.

    Good luck you are not alone

  43. Emily
    October 17, 2017 / 9:46 pm

    Going through exactly the same here with my 9 month old. He wakes approx every 2, 3 hours ( often less) in fact it’s 9:45 and he’s awake for the 2nd time since I put him to bed… He’s never really self settled either as I worry his crying will wake our toddler (though actually I think he’s much more sensitive to sound than she is… )
    His waking is definitely for comfort, he barely feeds before going back to sleep. It’s a bit of a vicious circle as feeding is the quickest way to get him back to sleep and I’m too tired to try anything else …. For me at the moment I haven’t put my expectations too high and am looking for a gradual improvement which I hope will come in time.

  44. Linda
    October 17, 2017 / 11:03 pm

    Just a quick answer, it‘s the middle of the night.
    I slept 4 days after birth with my husband in bed and baby in the cod beside me. Then the baby got sick and I had to lay him with the head up, so I took a big nursinhpillow and breastfed him in the football-position into the sleep and we would sleep like that trough the nigt. Stayed for 1 week in bed but found the couch more comfortable for sleeping in a half sitting position. So i slept with baby om the couxh for the next 6 month. Then he started to turn himself around even in the night so it was to dangerous on the couch so we moved into his room on a matress on the floor so no falling of the bed. I fed him to sleep until now. Used pillows between us. But at this point he was used to turn him around so I had no problems with him lying the way he wanteg. Ow he started with his next upper teeths and bites like a pyranja every time he is about to finish nursing! So I was forced to change the routine and try to get my finger in his mouth befor he bites again. Normaly he then wakes up and I have to rock him to sleep again. Thats since 2 days, hoping that he get‘s used to it and will not be awake every 2h again.
    I was so tired that I did‘t care about the danger of co-sleeing anymore and I don‘t regret it!
    Sometimes I wish the matress would be bigger so that my husband could join, but for now I cherrsish the time with baby in bed.
    Good night
    P.s. Sorry for any spelling issues, can‘t get my auto-correct to work, english is not my first language and it‘s 1 oclock in the night after 2 nights of almost no sleep.

  45. Shireen
    October 17, 2017 / 11:50 pm

    Going through the exact same patterns with my nine month old who has always been very wakeful. I pop her in bed with me around 4-5am as she will wake constantly in her cot otherwise. Just to add the other side of the debate, it’s a very emotive topic but babies don’t need to be trained how to sleep any more than they need to be trained how to walk – it’s developmental and comes with time. That doesn’t mean that the first year and beyond is not truly exhausting with some more sensitive babies. At the moment he needs you all night as the waking is due to huge changes in his brain – learning to crawl, understanding and speaking words etc.

    Unfortunately we know from behavioural psychology that many methods of sleep training only teach them not to cry – videos of sleep trained babies show that they still wake, but just go back to sleep without communicating a need (for comfort, milk, reassurance – babies have never before in history or in any other culture slept apart from mama, so it’s to be expected that they signal for reassurance). Our responsiveness now shapes their neural connections for life, how they respond to stress and how they form relationships.

    This link may help with understand why this age is awful for sleep.

    You might find the strategies in the No Cry Sleep Solution book helpful for getting more sleep in the medium term, and for now – this article is massively helpful in terms of how to maximise your own sleep.

    I hope things improve soon x

  46. Louise
    October 18, 2017 / 8:22 am

    I found this video funny yet practical.

    Obviously the comments are insane with divided opinion but I just saw it that you aren’t leaving your child to cry it out to a point where they are throwing up / think you have abandoned them forever and leaving them with psychological damage for the rest of their days – you are simply just letting them know that even if you do leave them for a few minutes you will always come back and that reassurance leaves them able to self soothe themselves back to sleep. It wont be for everyone but I am a firm believer that an exhausted, unhappy mum is far more unsettling for a child. No matter how much love I have for my son I simply cannot do a good job at parenting in the daytime if I don’t get a few stretches of uninterrupted sleep. My son is also much happier during the day after a restful night and I feel like a far more responsible parent having decreased the liklihood of me falling asleep behind the wheel, losing my job and setting the house on fire because I forgot tot turn off the gas in my sleep deprived daze.

    Actually, thinking back this is the same concept that we used on our dog when we first wanted to leave him at home. Started off with short periods and gradually increased it – *readers call social services for using puppy raising techniques on a child*.

    Anyhoo whatever you decide to do I wish you many a restful night!

  47. Alice
    October 18, 2017 / 9:20 am

    This post almost made me cry with recognition (and tiredness!) – I’m in exactly the same position with my seven month old son. I don’t have any words of wisdom as I’m struggling too, and the tiredness makes it very difficult to think clearly about solutions. All I can say is you’re definitely not alone. And we’re not doing anything wrong by wanting to comfort our babies and get some rest. Perhaps you could ask hubby to take over a couple of mornings a week so you can go back to bed for an hour or two. I go to mum and baby yoga once a week, which is very restorative (though tricky once the babies start crawling!).

    Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I’ve been reading your blog since I became pregnant, and it has been a great source of comfort, information and laughter. Now I’m going to have a proper read of the comments, if I can muster up the concentration…

  48. Rebecca Baladi
    October 18, 2017 / 12:38 pm

    Don’t have the energy to read the other comments at the moment as I too am in a zombie like sleep deprived state but sure there are some helpful tips from your lovely followers. My almost two year old went through a stage like this at about that age and we replaced the middle of the night feeds with s bottle of water…he eventually stopped bothering to wake up when it wasn’t boob! Started with the random wakes and then gradually replaced the sort of 3am one and then eventually the 10.30ish one so he was sleeping through. My 9wk old is also a very loud screamer and in bed with me currently (has pretty much been since birth) as really just need to get some sleep where you can! What reassures me in terms of the worries is to remember that co sleeping is very normal in lots of cultures and although some very horrible tragic cases it is extremely extremely unlikely that you would ever roll on them etc. Good luck and keep us posted. I absolutely love that you share such an honest account of parenting x

  49. Sarah
    October 18, 2017 / 9:09 pm

    Hello Ruth and other young Mums who have commented – I’m in my fifties (middle aged lady alert…) – and I just want you to know that you are all doing a great job. Now my children have left home, the tiredness of those exhausting baby days and nights 25 years ago is all forgotten. Looking back, the years went in a blink. What I remember is how much my babies and I loved each other, how I enjoyed the snuggles in bed and the happy chaos. It definitely, definitely wasn’t happy all the time – but I remember it as being happy. I had a phase of having the babies in the bed, because it was the only way we could all sleep, and then suddenly once they were walking, they went all independent and never wanted to sleep in our bed ever again! So the point I’m making is that the baby fatigue was just a relatively short time of life. Power doze and nap whenever you can. Whatever you do, keep going, keep loving your little ones and forgive them all the disruption they bring, because your selfless love and instinct care for them is the best investment you will ever make in anything, ever. You’re doing so well at the hardest and best job on the planet xx

  50. Jen
    October 19, 2017 / 3:00 am

    Also Found the sleepmama program helpful . Follow her on social media . Aussie Mum of twin boys. Check out her website for program details .

  51. Lindsey
    October 19, 2017 / 7:22 am

    Ruth! You are a star. I think I am just very lucky with my little one (9 months old now) but she basically sleeps through the night with a feed around 5 or 6am. Sometimes she sleeps with us for part or all of the night and always stays in bed with us after the early AM feed. However, my tips for you that I think helped us a lot:

    -bedtime routine every night without fail + bottle of formula so she stays as full as possible
    -“dream feed” the baby at 10 or 11 pm before you go to sleep yourself so she is more full again
    – pacifier and blanky

    I find that the pacifier and blanket are key to her self soothing. I know they don’t recommend blankets in their cribs before 1 year, but I have found it to be amazing. Sleep with the blanket yourself for one night so it smells like you and then give it to Ted. Hopefully the smell of you on the blanket will help him to feel close to you and not need to be in the bed next to you. Also I find that when they just want to comfort feed that’s when the pacifier goes in. Mama needs sleep!

  52. Sk
    October 19, 2017 / 6:44 pm

    You are doing an exceptional job Ruth. So many people think they are the expert and this rod for your back nonsense does my head in. Trust yourself and your instincts. Goodness I would never ignore my crying baby to train it. Who are these people who think they are manipulative little creatures. They just want their mummy! In Europe it is the norm to sleep with baby plus in the wild the mummy always keeps their babies close. I love co sleeping and when she gets bigger then I can reason with her. My husband is great, he wants the best for his girl and our marriage is fine thank you so very much.

    • Sk
      October 19, 2017 / 6:47 pm

      Sorry just all this “advice” is not helpful I think sometimes.
      Follow your instincts, you know your baby

  53. Nicole Thurmond
    October 20, 2017 / 1:02 am

    Dearest Ruth,
    You are lovely and are doing a wonderful job!! Your little ones are so clearly loved and adored by you. I have a 2.5yo daughter and 10mo son and have had my share of sleep trouble. The only thing I have found to work (and I have read nearly EVERY book and blog and website for sleep help) is graduated extinction/Ferber method. I know there are varying opinions about this so let me just say this. I am a woman/mom/nurse who loves and feels deeply and I had serious reservations about doing sleep training. After reading Dr Ferbers book and talking with our pediatrician, I felt comfortable enough to proceed with. I actually had my husband take the reins because I was too nervous and stressed to do it! (This was with our daughter) it literally took 2 nights and she was sleeping through the night!! I’m talking no more nursing her to sleep every 1.5-2 hours (at 8 months old) and sleeping on my chest. She has been a great sleepner ever since.
    Now with my son (who was a better sleeper from the beginning) we have had to tweek I it here and there but have used the same method concept.
    I know you mentioned a difficult living situation – I do understand. (I am currently living with my two children in my parents home while my husband is deployed). Have you tried white noise machines/box fans? Also, a towel or blanket under the bedroom doors for additional noise muffling?
    I hope some of this helps and encourages you. In the end, do what works for your family. You can do this!!

  54. Elizabeth
    October 21, 2017 / 2:19 am

    I would adore to be the bearer of good news and say the cosleeping will naturally come to an end. Not because it will help ease your mind, but so that I won’t have to admit to the fact that at this rate I’ll likely be sharing my bed with a teenager. I was adamant when we left the hospital that the baby was sleeping in her cot, but my husband who was already a father of three assured me that his had all coslept without issues. After a few nights of getting in and out of bed a bazillion times to check every sound or non sound was perfectly normal or for one of the thousand feeds or mini snacks or soothing suckles baby girl demanded I caved and kept her in bed with me. It was so much more convenient to feed her cradled in my arms as we lay in bed. I never really slept with both eyes shut for the next 12 months convinced something terrible would happen if I fell asleep on my watch (my watch being all night every night). Not that I would have slept much at all with my husband snoring the night through next to us. I think the first six months were the best nights sleeps my husbands ever had, because his wife was on full alert all night next to him.
    Anyways, long story short, all my “do gooder” family members were right, I made a rod for my own back. 18months in and I still share the bed. I sleep better, well, until I’m punched in the face (by baby, not husband) or said small human crawls on top of me cause I’m apparently more comfortable than the mattress, plus I have the added bonus of a nipple for convenient snacking. My only consolation is that my husband now gets kicked out of bed quite literally on a nightly basis by someone who prefers to sleep horizontally in the bed.
    So. Looks like I’ll be moving with her to her dorm when she goes to college. Because, you know, she can’t sleep without her momma.

  55. Katie
    October 21, 2017 / 8:51 am

    Sounds just like my son. His not sleeping is the reason he will be an only child. Which makes me a little sad but I absolutely refuse to go through that absolute hell again.

    We used a sleep consultant- Ellen Sahoy of
    She is based in Bath.

    I honestly feel that Ellen saved my life. I had no idea at the time but I was deep in post natal mental health problems that everyone apart from me could see. I didn’t want to do sleep ‘training’ as such, but I was at crisis point (PE) as you say.

    Ellen’s methods are more gentle than most. I’d really really recommend her.

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